How did you choose your skin care line?
I'm in school currently and I love skin care, and Im familiar with a lot of the skin care lines.. but I know their are TONS. How did you pick your skin care lines besides what is offered at your salon? Was it just trial and error?
I know entering a salon you don't have much control over what lines they carry, but Im curious on how you found the lines you like? Im not a fan of BioElements and Image.. I know A LOT of salons carry them, but I want something more aggressive..
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Samantha Maline on
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I'm not sure what you mean about word usage. Keratinized cells form the stratum corneum, hair and nails. I'm unaware of any other layers of skin that are fully keratinized. My understanding is that layers from the dermis up are in the process of becoming keratinized but not fully until they reach the stratum corneum. Or are we talking about two different things?
In regards to you disagreeing about bacteria...
I'm not saying it's not there. I assume we all know that p.acnes exists in skin as the natural flora. I'm only saying that the bacteria is minimal (although probably more than healthy levels) so I see no point in taking a bazooka to it (such as benzoyl peroxide) for levels that will reduce on their own once the blockages are cleared.
And as for the peel there are lower levels of this Jessner's available for me to use but I choose this one because of the enhanced peeling action of the resorcinol that's in it as well as because she has young, low melanin, resilient skin and because I can tell her acne is stubborn as well. If it works, then I know it's working, right? I'm not playing Russian roulette with her skin. I know that each acid has a different action, salicylic is dissolving the oil in the plug, lactic is dissolving the keratinized cells and the TCA and Resorcinol are peeling layers off and enhancing the penetration of the other two. The HQ is in there for those who pigment which she is not but it's not going to hurt her. HQ is more effective as a daily application. The pH is 2 (or roughly around that). I'm not sure why you distrust Jessner's solutions when they've been around and been effective for a long time.
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Permalink Reply by Marty Glenn on
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Samantha
CAPS BELOW FOR SEPARATION
About the "K"...forget I mentioned that part. K. There is no reason for you to know or understand that. But just an FHI, as a skin cell goes from the basement layer it changes names and when a cell is in the SC it is with a 'C'. But maybe we are saying the same thing and my head is not refreshed.
A matter of opinion here with this: ....bazooka to it (such as benzoyl peroxide)
I think TCA is way above BP and is along the lines of 2% BHA because both can be bought OTC and no license is required to use. 5% TCA two coats (No visible frosting (Protein Coagulation) with no other acids would have been my approach. Here is why:
The acne you see was created 7 - 10 days before it was visible and MUST run its course. What is there, that you cannot see MUST also run its course so for me working on that new skin sloughing would have been my goal and not a visible improvement right there and then or a day or two away. I know that is easy for me to say when I am not the one charging a fee. I get it, hence the reason MD always give accutane for one blemish.
On the Resorcinol question: NO. :) You would not. Since you have so many other acids in the mix that is your shotgun approach and accutane would be your bazzoka or in the case nuclear bomb. You can help me with this, I would appreciate it:
"When you applied that PCA peel how would you ever know what acid was working or which was a waste of money and unnecessary?"
1. ...salicylic is dissolving the oil in the plug WELL ? :)
2. ...lactic is dissolving the keratinized cells WELL ? :)
3. ...TCA and Resorcinol are peeling layers off and enhancing the penetration of the other two. WELL ? :)
"WELL ? :)" Is not the exact phrase I am looking for but let me say this to your points:
1. SA has a smaller molecular size which allows it to fall into the pores of the hair follicle and since the same corneocytes are inside the follicle as are on the surface of the skin, this acid is the best used for helping to dissolve the proteins and desmosomes which are holding the skin cells together. This process stopped for a number of reasons and the enzymatic process that helps further this process needs help form the acid. The strong will beat the acid the week will be dissolved and slough away.
2. Lactic acid is a "TIME" dependent acid while SA is not and Resorcinol is coat dependent so I have always been confused on how they compliment each other but I am assume that at 10% you could leave that on for a day and not have a single problem even on the most sensitive of skin types. Its a very week AHA so I am not sure its doing anything. I have a lotion that is 10% lactic and although effective its just weak as compared to GA or 20% SA or 5% TCA (one coat)
3. The whole penetration enhancer issue is false in my honest opinion. Over time as you thin the SC it would help with this of course but not on one time. I gave a document in an earlier post that explains what I mean here better but your not wrong in any way maybe I would not say it the way you are but end result would be the same.
...The pH is 2 (or roughly around that) MAKE SURE YOU KNOW SINCE IF YOU WERE GOING TO GO HIGHER IT WOULD MATTER FOR SOME SKIN TYPES. THE PH IS MORE IMPORTANT THEN PERCENTAGE
... Distrust for Jessner I DO NOT HAVE A DISTRUST FOR JESSNER. JESSNER WAS DEVELOPED BY A DR MAKING A NAME FOR HIMSELF WHO SPOKE REGULARLY AT M.D. PEEL LECTURES BACK WHEN PEELS FIRST CAME ON THE SEEN. NOTHING WRONG WITH WHAT HE DID BUT WHAT HE WAS AFTER WAS A CURE ALL. IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT A JESSNER IS IT IS SIMPLY A CONCOCTION. ALLOW ME TO GIVE MY OPINION. LACTIC ACID IS ONE OF THE MOST GENTLE OF ALL AHA AND THE BHA IS SELF NEUTRALIZING AND GENTLE IN ITS OWN RIGHT. THEN COMES A VERY POWERFUL ACID AND THAT IS THE ONE DOING THE WORK. THE REASON I THINK HE ADDED THE OTHERS IS HE WAS LOOKING FOR A MILD RESORCINOL ACID SINCE IT NORMALLY IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL AND THE DOWN TIME IS WAY TOO LONG AND SCARY FOR MOST NEW DRS TO DEAL WITH. LOWERING THE RESORICNOL AND ADDING THE OTHER LESSER IS WHAT GAVE IT THE FAME IS HAS TODAY SINCE THE BEAUTY OF 7% OR 14% IS NOT ENOUGH IN RESPONSIBLE HANDS TO CAUSE THE DEVASTATING DOWN TIME WHICH WAS ONCE ASSOCIATED WITH RESORCINOL, TCA @ 50% AND PHENOL.
ADDING THE OTHER TWO IS THE SAME THING PCA DID WITH THE PEEL YOU ARE USING. GUESSING.
Adding the HQ. I totally disagree with. HQ and acids do not have any reason to be together. The HQ is wasted and that is a chemical and application fact. What is more, in this case although cannot be proven I would wonder what HQ and the ingredients do when mixed together at the same time. That is 100% opinion and there is no governing body that will dispute what I am saying or grant its effectiveness.
If you want to continue I would be more then happy but to be respectful to your earlier post that it was not about all this, no problem. I only post so newbies can read this and also so I can be challenged.
Marty
SkinCareScience.com
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Samantha
Please read my last paragraph again. Most on this board are newbies and or still in school. Its not an attack. What do you think they will get from this exchange and all posts that are like this one. A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE.
I know what you are saying but you used the word: hyperkeratosis and that is a skin condition created by potentially serious but normally just a few things not in alignment with a person's skin and body. Acne creation is not always accompanied by that condition and I would say most of the time. You mentioned with a 'K" and yes deeper within the skin it is a 'K" but as it rises its a "C". And that matters: Not to you or I, unless I am explaining it in a classroom setting, but it does on this board since others who have way less experience are reading this. I care very much about that, not saying you do not.
Skin care started basically in the 90's with about 5 lines and a few Dr's. So most everything you use will give results that are positive, in some way or another what you are using is based on those earlier days. Trust me the history is there and all I was giving was a different view point and trying to stay neutral based on some education and study.
But I can assure you that all who are reading this are getting some very good skin knowledge and THAT is the point of this board. Isn't it?
And good luck tomorrow. Really its just the internet and these are just posts. :))
Marty
SkinCareScience.com
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Permalink Reply by Amy Sherman on
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That's funny Marty! I totally thought you were just trying to sell your product line! :D
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Amy
Ya I know its hard to be here and not say who you are and also help others. It comes out wrong no matter what. :)
Its funny but believe it or not very few esties actually buy and the numbers can be counted on my right hand so the time vs reward for someone in my position is not there as it pertains to products sales vs minutes spent.
Actually, this keeps me fresh fresh when I have to speak to Esties about skin care or protocol so in that the reward is huge.
But I appreciate the tongue and cheek. lol :)
Marty
SkinCareScience.com
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Permalink Reply by Monica Grajales on
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Hi Marty
I sent you an email with some questions. Let me know if you received it.
ThanksMonica
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"hyperkeratosis and that is a skin condition created by potentially serious but normally just a few things not in alignment with a person's skin and body. Acne creation is not always accompanied by that condition and I would say most of the time."
"Retention hyperkeratosis causes skin cells to accumulate inside follicles instead of desquamating as normal skin does. This cell buildup mixes with excessive sebum produced by the sebaceous glands." http://www.skininc.com/treatments/facial/8-Acne-Blunders-Common-Mis...
"Acne is actually caused by the inherited propensity of retention hyperkeratosis—dead skin cells that stick together at an accelerated rate along with other debris." -http://www.skininc.com/treatments/facial/Case-Studies-In-Hormonal-A...
"When the sebaceous glands are stimulated, a process known as retention hyperkeratosis occurs." - http://www.skininc.com/skinscience/physiology/38718062.html?mobi=y
"Five main factors play a pivotal role in the pathogenesis of acne: androgen dependence, follicular retention hyperkeratosis, increased sebaceous lipogenesis, increased colonization with P. acnes, and inflammatory events." - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20151947/
"
http://books.google.com/books?id=HJ3fv9rp0zQC&pg=PA30&lpg=P...
http://books.google.com/books?id=PP8uHih26JwC&pg=PA251&lpg=...
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While "true" acne is retention hyperkeratosis, there are other causes of acne, and I think this is what Marty is referring to. For example, stress. The pattern that acne caused by stress demonstrates is not the same as RHK. When stress is high, cortisol levels rise, which also increase other hormones and triggers cysts. I have successfully treated stress-related acne with absolutely no acne products at all. I became a Stress Management Coach because I kept seeing the same issues with no results from using acne products until the person dealt with their stress. Once stress is managed, "acne" is gone for good.
What about smokers? There is no way anyone can help those who develop acne due to smoking. Again, this type of acne follows a very specific pattern, which I have seen over and over during my 23 years as an aesthetician. It never fails. And if they don't smoke (as per client's history profile), I ask them when did they stop smoking. I always get an answer to my question. if they have stopped smoking, we can work with that, along with support to continue this path.
Anyway, I think Marty has been very nice in his comments, and polite, but something is getting lost in translation.
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Monica
Yes, you read between the lines well, again its only the internet and these are just posts, but I will give Samantha this:
Any Newbie here will appreciate the links she gave (me too) but want to know what the funniest part of this is??
I have NEVER and I mean NEVER had a nice conversation about acne. What I mean is it is so heated and emotional that every class I speak with or every estie I talk with and accutane or its cause or cure or management. It is ALWAYS a big deal.
Marty
SkinCareScience.com
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What I understand is that Marty disagrees with my treatment, my method, and my terminology. I don't call the cells of the follicular wall "corneocytes" because that's not what they are.
Picture 1: These are the corneocytes.
Picture 3: These are the follicular keratinocytes, hyperkeratosis, retention hyperkeratosis....
Picture 2: This is what I use to educate my clients.
correction on the picture numbers due to the uploading out of order...
RHK is a MAIN FACTOR in the development of acne. In fact, hormonal changes (such as the stress you're referring to) can trigger RHK. But I disagree with Marty that hyperkeratosis is "not always" and "most of the time" a cause of acne (which I'm understanding as meaning "hyperkeratosis" does not accompany acne most of the time, please correct me if I am wrong). All of the four (five if you want to include hormones) causes of acne come in degrees, giving you variable types of acne that respond to different treatments uniquely. "Corneocytes" can contribute to plugs but they're not the main cause such as RHK can be. Debris from the surface "ie Corneocytes" can get mashed into the pores/follicles by touching (contact dermatitis) but when it's the cells lining the follicle walls that are not desquamating properly, that's follicular hyperkeratosis. Which is what I determined my client to have. And that by the way...is indisputable by anyone on this board...because I'm the one treating her skin.
But while this is irrelevant to our discussion I'm going to add it in anyway. Corneocytes ARE keratinized cells. So the terms are synonymous. Making the differentiation pointless unless you specifically want to explain corneocytes. - Attachments:
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1397507431729.jpg, 1.7 MB
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1397507411760.jpg, 1.7 MB
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Samantha
Always remember this is the internet and its only a post.
"I don't call the cells of the follicular wall "corneocytes" because that's not what they are." That is ok. I do and here is why:
If you start to get too technical and call each layer of the skin a different name and all that nobody knows what your talking about and nobody can follow. Like the SC is not a layer on its own right but is part of another layer but somehow within skin care, and its ok that it is this way, it become its own layer the is not perceived as part of another.
I call the cells within the 'follicular' wall Corneocytes because its easy for people to follow. They get it. Not saying they don't get it with you just for me it makes sense.
You'll get a lot of 'What?' with this one Samantha: "Which is what I determined my client to have." And the reason you will is because all that has to be asked is this: Can you see it? Did you see it?
It was easier to google this so I wanted to just post this since I made a reference to it and wanted to explain:
The transformation of the keratinocyte includes the loss of the cell nucleus and cytoplasm, formation of a tough outer structure called the cell envelope, aggregation of keratins and expellation of lipids into extracellular spaces. The resultant corneocyte is comprised of about 80% keratin by dry weight
OK. So here is why they are not 'Synonymous' and I made the point but did not really in a few posts back. I left a lot out so I will explain better why I said what I did here:
If the Epidermis is too shallow or the dermis is too thick, the result will be a keratinocyte that spends too much time down low or go too fast to the surface. This results in Keratinocytes that are NOT corneocytes and there for you have psoriasis and eczema and a whole host of other skin related diseases. The 'Corenocyte' means that all the lipids and proteins have left and the Keratinocyte is now functionally dead and is now brittle and hard. The end result is properly performing skin. If the path is not the correct time and place as it moves its way to the top of the skin it will cause serious problems. Now I am being VERY simple here as well so you have to sorta read between the lines and know that I will not use high level medical terms or language.
Does this make sense? Did I miss a point? :)
I made something for you really quick and hope you like it and can use it. I also made one that is unbranded for anyone else. Any errors let me know and I will fix and re-post. Really it was 10 minutes of my time so its a pleasure.
Marty
SkinCareScience.com
- Attachments:
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Samantha.pdf, 4 MB -
Unbranded.pdf, 3.2 MB
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Samantha,
Very good details. Thank you for posting. I am sure others will appreciate these links as I do.
Marty
SKinCareScience.com
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