Penetration to the subcutaneous layer
Hi all,
A neighbor of mine sells Protandium (made by Life Vantage corp) and their skincare product (1) is called True Science. She says it penetrates to the subcutaneous layer where the bottom of wrinkles exist. I don't recall hearing in school that products can penetrate this far down. Was I sleeping? Is this correct? Comments please.
Tags: Product, layer?, penetration, subcutaneous, the, to
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Nina on
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Marty, that is very interesting. So if I have this correct; for example, there is a website called "Paula's Choice", one of the very many informative websites about skincare ingredients based on scientific facts; Paula has a list of hundreds of ingredients, explaining each one scientifically & accurately, what it is exactly and how it's used, and whether it should be avoided or looked for, and why...she also sells her own skincare line on this website; you would think these products are made based off the information she gives everyone, but I just couldn't believe seeing that "Paula's" skincare products contained some of the same ingredients she was just saying to stay away from. I just couldn't understand. But if I understand correctly now, I am going to take it that "Paula's Choice" actually got their formulas from the mfgr., and that "Paula's Choice" was just one the very many companies who didn't know to tell the mfgr what they wanted, and what exactly they did not want. Now you would think that these companies who actually knew better would do whatever they could to change their product, make it right next time. But now, based on my research with guidelines for labeling skincare products by the FDA, well there really are no guidelines. Skincare lines can put just about whatever they want on their labels which for example, is why way too often products these days say "non comedogenic", but then the second ingredient in is highly comedogenic. And I have went as far back as researching "the journal of chemists" for scientifically proven studies on the real comedogecity of ingredients to know the differences. So your explanation makes a lot of sense as to why so many skincare companies have these kind of chemicals in them. Making this problem, yes, very, very overlooked.
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Permalink Reply by Marty Glenn on
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Nina.
Basically yes. The 'Non Comedogenic' study is based off the 'Back'. It is a lengthy study and if you have researched ingredients maybe you have read about it or studied it.
Let me say this:
Find what YOU believe in then find the MFGR and LINE that most resembles that and stick with it. If you don't you will spend all your time and mental energy with liquid and ingredients and trying to find out what is truth or is not truth. 80% of the industry is NOT truth. Its just a fact, sad to say but it is.
MFGR all have to play by specific rules, its just how strict does the MFGR want to be.
Marty
SkinCareSceince.com
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Permalink Reply by Jessica on
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Hi Nina,
I was really interested in your findings about Paula's Choice products containing some of the ingredients she was saying to stay away from. Do you recall which ingredients or which products contained the irritating ingredients?
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Ah, I also have a few more questions for you Marty. Hope you don't mind all my typing, I know I'm very wordy. Just want everything to be clear. So, I'm sure you have heard of the "ORAC System" for anti-aging products, I use a private label company "Botanical Science" as my main skincare line for most skin types, a few different products from elsewhere for other skin types, although I plan to use a second main line as well in the future, to fill in some gaps and offer more solid retail variety (think that's important)...but anyway, I firmly believe BSI is very much a legit company, not a very well known one, no minimum orders or fancy packaging, but I think that's better, they use the ORAC system which I think is important.
Its very simple, I strongly believe in the majority of these products, and the majority so happened to be the products I ordered and put my name on, and the few that I don't believe in, (meaning products containing ingredients I don't believe in based on my research); I did not order and will not put my name on.
When you say private label companies are a mass contributor to this problem we are speaking of here, do you mean that many skincare lines who claim the product is theirs, truly just "private label" more than they do just going to a chemist with their formulation details; and feel obligated to just order all the product they can from their private label so they can call themselves "a full skincare line"; and assuming they are part of the problem, kind of just "got what they got" due to the fact they probably didn't do their research on ingredients enough, or did, but didn't care enough due to the fact they can label it whatever they want anyway. So pretty much, they do the opposite of what I do with my private label company. And that's what makes many private label companies a mass contributor to the problem.? Or is there something else that I missed, a problem within some of the private label companies themselves? And out of curiosity, what are your thoughts about the ORAC system?; And that its' not required for all mfg's to use.?
Last question, my private label BSI gives me the option to come up with my own formulation; I give them the formulation I am requesting/I tell them what I want, and make sure I tell them specifically what I don't want!, etc etc, they do the research & development for a fee, send me the sample, and I see if it meets my expectations and standards; and when it does, the fee is applied to my order of the forumlation. What guidelines should I look for and watch out for when it comes to this? Because it's something I'm highly interested in doing in the future when I have the funds for it.
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(Fee is applied back to me for my order of he formulation*) also are there any guidelines I should follow coming up with the formula myself other than the basic research on my part that should be involved) or do you have a completely different view on this whole thing? It's always good to hear other views from other sides first.
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Nina
I read the about us on 'Botanical Science' and I would not buy from them based on this. Here is the reason why and its just me. What they are saying is a lot of the same you will find from a private label company. They do this or they do that... Harvest at the right time... Cold pressed vs. ???... and they say this in the first paragraph: ...and new technology specialty ingredients. I know what that is and I don't use those ingredients. They might be a great company and produce fantastic products but if you read other private label companies they say the same or close to the same.
A good manufacture, one that ranks high on my lists will not say these things and will not offer private label. It costs 5 - 10K to make a product with the right RnD and time so why give away and mass produce?
Now your last paragraph is interesting. :) I have never met a skin care pro who had the money to do what you are saying in your last paragraph. If your doing one product then maybe? or they are being very nice to you but considering most professional lines have 30 + products on the front end, I don't see how you could move enough product via a retail distribution channel to make it financial viable.
Do you have a link to the 'ORAC-System' ? I will take a look at it but I am sure it is a philosophy that has merit but maybe just not mine.
Marty
SkinCareScience.com
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Marty, I have 2 links about the ORAC system:
http://www.biotek.com/resources/articles/antioxidant-potential-usin...
This link really explains it best I think with all of the diagrams; I have read that it has been criticized by some, due to the fact that it is super time consuming & requires too much precision for the time it takes to complete. I also read that there is a new improved version;
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0113732
Although I do not fully understand on a scientific level, so I'm not sure of the differences. It has been used to test antioxidants in foods as well; and based on what I have read in a few different articles; the system was not as effective enough with foods. I'm pretty sure I read about it somewhere in our ASCP business handbook; as I tried looking for the page but being that I have every other thing in there highlighted or underlined, my mind kind of just gave up the search. What do you think?
Now when you say you know what "technology specialty ingredients" is; and that you don't use those ingredients, what do you mean by that, what kind of ingredients exactly are these?
Also, when you say you wouldn't use the private label company BSI, do you mean the actual products or the whole formulation development aspect? I must say, I personally am a big believer in most of these BSI products; I will not use them on acneic skin; I use a few other products from other places I like the ingredients in for this skin type (although as I said id like to find an actual full line for this; so I can have better solid selection, especially for retail); but for every other skin type; I've found them to be effective, I was actually trained in school with them. I was trained in school with 3 skincare lines: Sothy's, Nathuropathica, and Botanical Science. Part of using the products, was testing the products out on ourselves, well at least I did. I have had done a lot of ingredient research before I even went to school for my own skin problems, but I was still very new to it, and I still went straight for the fancier packing first, Nathuropathica; ended up breaking out (too many essential oils), then Sothy's who all of my etsy classmates loved for the luxury, got the same result, broke out. So I went to BSI the least luxury line; and I ended up not breaking out and actually seeing great results. In fact I didn't use BSI for one week, and noticed a difference, not a better one. As I kept doing my research on ingredients, I compared the ingredients in these products to the others; and also researched the ingredients in these individually, and I was happy with what I saw, gave samples to my clients to take home, loved them. So that is what got me into this line, and the fact I could make it my line too without having to do some crazy minimum order and spend $30 on each product was a plus. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean I am definately 100% going to use all of them in business for the rest of my etsy life, although I can't see myself nottt using a good select few of them; but as I said, variety, and that is why I am so interested in learning what else is out there; and learning from another scientist or etsy, or skincare line's point of view, who I can tell actually knows what they are talking about, (such as yours), what they think of them. And I know I'm not going to have an easy time widening my variety of skincare being that you are completely right, about 80% of the skincare out there, is not what it says it is. I did my final report back in school as well on skincare product ingredients actually, more for me than for school; and when I stood up there infront of my classmates with about 20 "false" products and about the only 4 "true" products I could find, all from the same store "Value Drugs"; and told them that about 80% of the skincare out there is nothing but a nicely labeled bottle, they didn't want to believe me. So its good to come across other people on the same page as me; and put as much, or even more effort into the ingredient aspect as me.
With that being said, I not only want to inform people as much as I can, but I want to keep learning as much as I can. I am still in the process of just starting out my own small business, which yes costs way more than I had imaged, but all worth it, so I'm in the stage of keeping my eye out for more products and learning about more products, but not quite ready to order just yet. And yes, SkinCareScience is in my mind. I am just also too interested in coming up with my own pure formula, and eventually formulas, I've always been interested in it, skincare with ingredients that I not only just believe in, but skincare that contains all of the ingredients I believe in MOST. Excluding all the ingredients I don't believe in, or just "acceptable" completely. Its clearly hard to find products like that, I am leaned in more towards natural ingredients. And what that being said, I have a few questions, about this. Do you think a product with solely natural ingredients, no essential oils, can have just as much as value & just as much of an effect as one with "safe" non-harsh chemicals or oils? I am targeting sensitive skin and break-out prone skin, because that's the problem that I had and see most struggle with products out there. I just can't stand reading through ingredients on a product that are almost perfect for this skin type, and then all of a sudden 4th ingredient in "Soybean Oil" for example knowing its comedogenic. Or even "Lavander" (its natural but it is a fragrance if I'm correct). What are your thoughts on the whole comedogenic thing, and using comedogenic ingredients based off these studies in products? The line "Eminence" is the closest thing I've found that contains some products that are completely my type of organic ingredients without any comedogenic ingredients, and even a few of these products are.."eh"; and very very very expensive for such small sizes.. All the more reason to try and come up with something even more pure, with less ingredients. That doesn't empty my wallet completely. Which has lead me to be interested in some of the companies that offer just pure extracts or clays, and what not, for example, "Bentonite Clay"; its great stuff for acne; but maybe too drying for some people; and can't be used alone as a daily skincare regimen. So I have considered mixing a few different of these pure ingredients I fully believe in to come up with some formulation that ...just works; not even to necessarily sell right now, but just use on clients. An example of these companies that provides things such as this are "Spa Pantry"; and "From Nature with Love". What do you think about these companies? And do you know what the guidelines are as far as making your own product using these companies ingredients and actually selling them? I'd assume its a big no-no. But I am curious as to how something like this actually would work; or what the best option would be to pursue this personal formulation idea saying that I will eventually have the funds for it.
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Nina
I will look at links. That is a big read for sure. Looks like valuable knowledge to have none the less.
In your post you are mentioning big topics and none are simple answers but if I can sum up this way:
1. I do not believe in oils and natural ingredients. Most are botanical and I do not believe in botanical ingredients. But allow me to say this: If you want aloe, go and get a plant. Do not combine it with all these other ingredients and then call it aloe. Just go get the real thing. They say that everything we need is in nature and I do believe that but we don't live in nature so hence my direction with chemical products.
2. Packaging 'Outer Boxes' is a big No No in the skin care industry. It adds $10 - $30 to the final retail price and does nothing for the end product or result.
3. I believe that if you want to produce a product that works follow the studies and follow the percentages used and use that! It might be boring and trust me, my line is but it works. Its that simple. There are many lines out there like it and most of the time you have never heard the name before. But that's the way if goes for lines that spend their money on the product, rather then the marketing.
4. Piece of advise (Business advice) :) ...
Stop trying to educate with ingredients and products. The marketing dollars spent creating the 'white noise' is in the hundreds of millions. Concentrate on the clients lives / skin you change and they will be with you for life. More importantly, they WILL believe you...
I have said this many times, and wish you all the best, but take your pick:
A. Bring $500,000 or more and start a line (Don't forget about all the documentation you need with it i.e. manuals and education and protocols
B. Spending the next 10 - 15 years building it from the ground up. THIS LOOKS LIKE YOUR PATH
C. Lot and Lots of LUCK! With any success story their is always a little luck. :)
But based on your posts and the words, I am sure effort and heart are not in short supply and those two items are half the battle in business.
Marty
SkinCareScience.com
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Thank you for all of the informative information; and for answering my long questions, very very good point with the aloe plant. And yes yes I do know it's not allll about ingredients, my main clientele love me for the truth & knowledge I give them, about what they don't know & need to know to start improving their skin, and it just interests me so much, but technique is equally as important, its actually huge, as well as the skin itself, and relationship with the client, I do agree and I don't think I'd go very far without all of that together. I will definitely be utilizing a lot of this information throughout the journey, so thank you once again.
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Permalink Reply by Amy Sherman on
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We just love marty!
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:)
Marty
SkinCareScience.com
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I got into this field in the same darn way. I was so inflamed and my acne was so bad and a couple of esty's who didn't know what they were doing tried to get me to use glycolic peels at 70%. I was so enflamed and SWOLLEN I looked as if I were a blonde headed Asian woman. I tried a home made recipe from a friend of mine and POOF everything calmed down. I get so frustrated when people say it's chemical free only to find PEG's and other irritating and comedonegenic ingredients. I ended up doing my own research also, discovered what worked for ME and lots of OTHER people and I have to say, that I have yet to find a skincare line that follows through. I pick and chose but I don't love any of it. Natural ingredients can be irritating too. I've even seen people toot "natural" ingredients only to point out that poison ivy is a "natural" ingredient too, just not a good idea for your face. :D I am glad that Felice has found a skincare like that she likes. I need to try Marty's i think. I don't know...
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